First, let's look at Ice's quote of Ryrie. He claims that "elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28)." Yet, the verses Ryrie offers as evidence do not support his claim!

Acts 15:6
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (KJV)

Dr. Ryrie would have us believe that the use of the term "elders" here really means the whole church. Yet, when we look at the context, it is clear that the whole church was NOT present in verse 6, and the terms "Apostles" and "elders" are meant to EXCLUDE the rest of the church. In verse 4, Paul and Barnabas were before the whole church when a dispute with the Pharisees arose. Then, in verse 6, the Apostles and elders assembled privately with Paul and Barnabas to consider the objections. Therefore, this passage proves just the opposite of what Ryrie claims.

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV)

Here again Ryrie's example proves him wrong. This sermon was delivered to the elders of the Ephesian church, not the whole church. Paul distinguished between the elders and the "flock" over whom they are the overseers. Paul, in his address, singled out the elders! Therefore, in neither case does the term "elders" imply the whole local church, never mind the whole universal Church! So Ryrie's statement, that in the New Testament "elders" represent the entire Church, is simply not supported by the evidence he provided.

Ryrie also appealed to the 24 courses of priests in the Old Testament in support of his view. The priests acted on behalf of the people and so are "representitives" of the people in this sense, with the people themselves NOT entering the Temple or into the presence of the Lord! But, if we transplant this meaning into the Revelation passages, we arive at much different conclusions that Ryrie and Ice! In this case, the 24 elders would be present in heaven as representitives of the people who are not present in heaven. In other words, the 24 elders would "represent" the Church in heaven just as our Congressmen "represent" us in the Congress! That is far different that what Ryrie and Ice are implying, that the language of Revelation, by using the word 'elders,' implies that the whole Church is present in heaven.

The 24 Elders are Angelic Beings
Sometimes Revelation 5:8-10 is offered as evidence that the 24 elders represent the whole Church.

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

In the KJV, it appears from the song sung by the 24 elders that they are "redeemed from every tribe and nation." Since there are more than 24 nations, it is said that they represent the whole of the Church in heaven. However, it is a well known fact that the KJV mistranslates this particular passage by using the first person plural, when the third person plural should be used. The vast majority of manuscripts support the third person plural. Notice the NASB's correct translation of this passage, where the four creatures and 24 elders are singing in the third person about another group, redeemed from every nation.

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "And Thou hast made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and THEY will reign upon the earth." (NASB)

Clearly, the 24 Elders view themselves APART FROM those redeemed from every nation, who will reign on the earth. Notice the group they are singing about are ALL of the saints, not just a particular remnant of saints. By singing of them in the third person, the 24 elders have necessarily excluded themselves from the whole body of the redeemed. They are therefore NOT a part of the Church.

For those who wish to challenge the NASB (and nearly every other translation), consider this fact. The 24 elders are not the only ones singing this song! It is a joint choir of the four creatures and the twenty-four elders! Are the four creatures claiming to be "redeemed from every nation?" If the KJV is correct here, then the four living creatures are including themselves in the body of redeemed men!

Also, notice that the four creatures and the twenty-four elders work in unison in worship of God. John observed this earlier in chapter 4.

Rev 4:6-11
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
(KJV)

This functioning in unison, as well as their singing in unison in chapter 5, seems to indicate that the 24 elders are celestial beings like the four creatures. Isaiah indicated their interaction with the throne of God thousands of years ago! So, it seems that four living creatures have been in heaven all along worshipping in this manner. So, why not the 24 elders?

John was caught up to heaven in the first century. Yes, he was going there to see the future revealed. But, this doesn't seem to begin until the ceremony of the opening of the seals. At first John just described what heaven was like. Then the play began for his benefit. At first, no one even paid any attention to his arrival.

In his description of heaven, John was doing more than telling us what he personally observed. How did he know that the 4 creatures and 24 elders praise God day and night without ever stopping, as 4:8 indicates? That is not based on his personal observation. He wasn't there long enough to know that from personal observation. Note the use of the present tense verbs in 4:8-10. In other cases where John was simply describing what he personally observed, he used the past tense. For example:

Rev 4:1-6
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
(KJV)

Note that the verbs are in the past tense in His narritive, indicating John's telling his personal observations. Yet, when elaborating on the activity of the elders and 4 creatures before the throne, John switched to present tense verbs. Note:

Rev 4:8-11
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
(KJV)

This switch to the present tense verbs indicates that John wanted to emphasize the perpetual nature of what was going on in heaven. In other words, this is what he observed, BUT, he wanted to let his readers know that it is still going on in heaven even now, years after he saw it! This is what goes on in heaven continuously! "This is what heaven is like," rather than "this is what I observed."

Notice also, that when he got to the prophetic parts (the things that shall be hereafter) he switched back to using past tense verbs in his narritive.

I think this is significant in demonstrating that the perpetual praise by the 24 elders and the 4 creatures was going on in the 1st century, and is still going on today. It is because of this perpetual praise that the seventh seal is so important in and of itself, SILENCE IN HEAVEN. It is the first time there is silence in heaven.

That this praise of Jehovah has been going on in heaven since Old Testament days is seen from Isaiah's description.

Isa 6:1-3
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!"
(NKJ)

Note that the 6-wing Seraphim are praising God, just as in Revelation!

Rev 4:8
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
(NKJ)

It seems that John's description of them praising God day and night goes all the way back hundreds of years to Isaiah's day! And, Rev. 4:9,10 says that WHENEVER the 4 Seraphim praise in this way, the 24 elders cast their crown before the Throne, (Rev. 4:9,10). I think we can now conclude that the 24 elders have also been doing this since Isaiah's day!

If this observation is correct, and I am convinced it is, then the 24 elders were in heaven worshipping Jehovah in conjunction with the 4 creatures in Isaiah's day. Therefore, they cannot be resurrected men.

4 Creatures & 24 Elders act as Priests
The activities of BOTH the 24 elders and four creatures implies that they are acting on behalf of Christians who are not present. Notice that they are offering the prayers of the saints before the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(KJV)

There is a clear distinction here between the "saints" (who's prayers are being offered) and those offering them (the 24 elders & 4 creatures). It seems likely then that the "saints" who's prayers are being offered before the throne of God are not present in heaven to act on their own behalf. (If they are already there, why are 'prayers' being offered?)

It seems quite likely that the twenty-four elders and the four creatures are acting on behalf of Christians, and so are separate from the Church in general. By the words of their song, they have excluded themselves from among the "redeemed from every nation."

In chapter 8, we see another "angel" doing exactly the same thing. This implies that acting in this priestly function on behalf of the saints is a function of certain angelic beings (rather than men).

Rev 8:3-4
3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. And he was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.
(NKJ)

Elsewhere in Revelation we also see the 24 elders referring to the redeemed in the third person, not including themselves.

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

Notice that the 24 elders are speaking about ALL of the saints of all time. Yet, they do not seem to include themselves.

Sometimes it is claimed that the word "elders" is never applied to angels or celestial beings, and therefore must refer to men. However, the biblical definition of "elder" can either mean great age, or higher rank or authority. When speaking of the "elders" of the churches, it is not taken for granted that an "elder" must be old, or older than the congregation. The word speaks more to the concept of authority.

The meaning of the word "elder" is indeed applied to angels in Scripture. In the New Testament Michael is referred to as the "arch-angel" (Jude 1:9). The prefix "arch" means chief or high rank, just as the word "elder." In the Old Testament, Michael is called "one of the chief princes" (Dan. 10:13). Here again, the word "chief" is a Hebrew word with the same meaning. In fact, this same Hebrew word is translated "eldest" in 2 Chron. 22:1. The word "prince" is also a Hebrew word that refers to high rank. So, the concept of "elder" is definately appropriate for certain high ranking celestial beings. And wearing crowns and sitting on thrones would certainly be appropriate for rulers or high ranking celestial beings.

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